Curse

Nuclfus · Jun 09, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The problem with the "don't like, don't use" argument (if you can call it that) is that it can be applied to anything in the game:

No it can't. Say if Ursan were PvP usable for example, then the argument wouldn't apply because it directly affects your game experience whether you use it or not. And assuming it does, it's still left to be shown whether the negative impact is reasonable enough a cause to justify changing it and possibly unbalancing other game aspects or upsetting more players. Take the "Ursan-ruins-economy-and-thus-affects-my-game-experience" argument: you have to assume a) you know more than Anet about their own game economy despite all the records and statistics they have which you don't, b) whatever negative effect you're basing your argument on isn't taken care of already (i.e. asserting that a significant increase in the supply of gold is not matched by a proportionally significant increase in supply of a particular good that would drive price down at the same rate gold supply drives it up). Once you have these two, you can deal with arguing c) whether the negative effect is SO bad that there really is no other way to address or alleviate the issue than being forced to use the skill yourself or have it nerfed. Whining "Ursan makes me slightly poorer" doesn't cut it, you have to show "Ursan makes me poor to the point where I really can't reasonably enjoy the simpler aspects of the game (say for example, buying max weapons for missions and quests)."

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"Is there an exploit that's bugging you? Don't use it, it doesn't affect you!"
"Someone using a glitch that's giving them 10000k a second? You don't have to use it, so why do you care?"
"Why ban gold farmers? It's not like their play is affecting me at all, anyways."

Exploits and glitches fall under technical issues that would be addressed regardless of whether people like them or not. Which leaves gold farming, which personally I'm fine with NOT banning. Since I personally find it a waste of time, I make the conscious choice NOT to spend my time in game farming for gold, and yet I respect that others might choose differently. They get rich, I play the way I want to, everybody wins. Anet doesn't have anything against you farming hours on end to make as much money as you want.

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The point is this: Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And just because it exists doesn't mean it actually bothers us in a fashion such that Anet should cater to our preference over those who are perfectly happy with the skill.

X3R0 · Jun 09, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Totally agree with Nuclfus here.

kostolomac · Jun 09, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

No it can't. Say if Ursan were PvP usable for example, then the argument wouldn't apply because it directly affects your game experience whether you use it or not. And assuming it does, it's still left to be shown whether the negative impact is reasonable enough a cause to justify changing it and possibly unbalancing other game aspects or upsetting more players. Take the "Ursan-ruins-economy-and-thus-affects-my-game-experience" argument: you have to assume a) you know more than Anet about their own game economy despite all the records and statistics they have which you don't, b) whatever negative effect you're basing your argument on isn't taken care of already (i.e. asserting that a significant increase in the supply of gold is not matched by a proportionally significant increase in supply of a particular good that would drive price down at the same rate gold supply drives it up). Once you have these two, you can deal with arguing c) whether the negative effect is SO bad that there really is no other way to address or alleviate the issue than being forced to use the skill yourself or have it nerfed. Whining "Ursan makes me slightly poorer" doesn't cut it, you have to show "Ursan makes me poor to the point where I really can't reasonably enjoy the simpler aspects of the game (say for example, buying max weapons for missions and quests)."

Exploits and glitches fall under technical issues that would be addressed regardless of whether people like them or not. Which leaves gold farming, which personally I'm fine with NOT banning. Since I personally find it a waste of time, I make the conscious choice NOT to spend my time in game farming for gold, and yet I respect that others might choose differently. They get rich, I play the way I want to, everybody wins. Anet doesn't have anything against you farming hours on end to make as much money as you want.
And just because it exists doesn't mean it actually bothers us in a fashion such that Anet should cater to our preference over those who are perfectly happy with the skill.

/bow
This is the truth

Clarissa F · Jun 09, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

/bow
This is the truth

How, then do you explain the value of, say, armbraces dropping with traders? This game doesn't control items traded in the open, and these are affected. As said before, It also affects acceptance into a group in elite areas, forcing you to a) buy an expansion, b)using a skill considered by those who use it and those who try not to as a "win" button, instead of bringing your own build, and c) invest time in a repetitive activity you might not want to do, just to get a rank to be accepted. All this to get into an area that, without Ursan Blessing, the majority of people there would never manage to get through. Also, in areas that Anet does control, they have shown again and again that when something gets too overpriced(ectos, sup vig runes) they flood the market and lower the prices accordingly.

Saying dldu is saying "don't do areas that these morons who never learned the mechanics of the game, or worked on proper builds to fit the area, can waltz through." I say take off the "elite" designation of everything in PvE, because with Ursan and PvE skills, no area is elite.

Golgotha · Jun 09, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Retard... No, I'm pretty sure that's not a VERB. "I'm retarding"... No. You can't say that. But you can say "I'm getting EXP with my party in World of Warcraft and talking using TeamSpeak, you r-tard.".

Not to be the English nazi, but its actually both a verb and a noun.

Asbestos was commonly used to retard flames. Yet, when you're speaking of that effect, it is now a noun.

Nuclfus · Jun 10, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

How, then do you explain the value of, say, armbraces dropping with traders? This game doesn't control items traded in the open, and these are affected.

Whether Ursan affects this is only a small fraction of the controversy. Is Ursan the sole contributing factor to dropping prices? Do lower prices help or hinder the ability of most players to enjoy the game? Even if they hinder, is this setback outweighed by other helpful qualities of Ursan blessing in its current state to players? If not, can Ursan be changed in such a fashion as to "solve" the price issue without simply causing many more problems in other gameplay aspects?

I imagine these are only some of the questions Anet deals with in skill balance issues, and given that they have access to all sorts of game statistics we don't even consider I'm going to assume their decision not to nerf Ursan (or possibly to nerf it later on for that matter) is based on knowing more about this issue than either you or me.

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As said before, It also affects acceptance into a group in elite areas,

As do character profession, skill variety (by which I mean non-Ursan 8-skill bars), Vent/TS capability, and other factors. Obviously we accept these as fundamental facts of playing the game, so what's your point?

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forcing you to a) buy an expansion, b)using a skill considered by those who use it and those who try not to as a "win" button, instead of bringing your own build,

No one's forcing you to do anything, even if a situation arises where you're trying to farm an elite area and you can't get a group because every single player there not only has the expansion but then also utterly refuses to group with you. What's to stop you from finding a guild with like-minded people to help you (if these forums are any indication you're one of very many interested non-Ursan players) and some decent heroes? Many people seem to fight or ignore that idea, but I've done it and guess what: it works. If you try that and you still can't get through your elite area then that's a problem nerfing Ursan won't fix.

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and c) invest time in a repetitive activity you might not want to do, just to get a rank to be accepted.

...so farming a title is a repetitive activity you might not want to do, yet farming an elite area for profit isn't?

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All this to get into an area that, without Ursan Blessing, the majority of people there would never manage to get through.

Assuming this is the case, does this not mean that nerfing Ursan would satisfy a small minority at the expense of a majority?

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Also, in areas that Anet does control, they have shown again and again that when something gets too overpriced(ectos, sup vig runes) they flood the market and lower the prices accordingly.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, because for me this seems to indicate that any "problems" caused by Ursan be solved with simple drop rate manipulation (say reducing the DoA gemstone droprates for the armbrace scenario), thus averting the issue of potentially upsetting the application of Ursan Blessing elsewhere.

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Saying dldu is saying "don't do areas that these morons who never learned the mechanics of the game, or worked on proper builds to fit the area, can waltz through." I say take off the "elite" designation of everything in PvE, because with Ursan and PvE skills, no area is elite.

And since when did ripping a farming build off the forums or wiki indicate anything about a player understanding game mechanics, working on "proper builds", or being less of a moron? Never if you ask me, but lucky for you I'm not so elitist that I would see them excluded from those game areas. Whether you like it or not, Ursan is as much a game mechanic in itself as the cookie cutter farming builds your perspective sympathizes with - and guess what, the people succeed at using it have learned that mechanic.

ApocalypseAzza · Jun 10, 2008, 01:27 AM // 01:27

ursan blessing should be removed from the game

its ruined pve

i refuse to play ursan and so only play with people i know or heroes

nobody comes up with builds anymore, was it an answer to help out all the noobs/lazy people that cant come up with anything

so much for 'skill not time played'

aB- · Jun 10, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

If you can apply the "don't like it don't use it argument" then why is ANY game with PvE balanced by the designers at all?

ogre_jd · Jun 10, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

As said before, It also affects acceptance into a group in elite areas

Strange. Middle of the afternoon (Eastern time zone), Chantry of Secrets (had just arrived there for the first time ever), using my cookie-cutter [[Dragon Slash] build, I got accepted into an Underworld group in less than 10 minutes. 2 Monks, a Ritualist with some healing, an Ele, 2 Rangers, a Necro Hero MM, and 2 Warriors. The other Warrior was the only Ursan. Perhaps the Underworld isn't an elite area...

Sadly, I don't know how it turned out because I got a lag spike that froze my computer just as we entered the Room to be Cleared for the first quest and couldn't reconnect after the reboot. :/

Virtually no spam in Local, either, from Ursans LFGing (just one group looking for another Monk and one Ursan looking for a group). Eh. Maybe it gets more active in the evenings.

illidan009 · Jun 10, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Well I suppose it makes sense that "don't ban it some ppl actually like it", but it does deserve some sort of nerf...change the first skill would be best. But I do have a problem with finding "OMG GLF MOAR R10 URSAN AND HB MONKS!!!!!!111"
making it hard for others to find groups...don't give me that "join a guild" BS b/c many of them don't help anyway

Clarissa F · Jun 10, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Whether Ursan affects this is only a small fraction of the controversy. Is Ursan the sole contributing factor to dropping prices? Do lower prices help or hinder the ability of most players to enjoy the game? Even if they hinder, is this setback outweighed by other helpful qualities of Ursan blessing in its current state to players? If not, can Ursan be changed in such a fashion as to "solve" the price issue without simply causing many more problems in other gameplay aspects?

I imagine these are only some of the questions Anet deals with in skill balance issues, and given that they have access to all sorts of game statistics we don't even consider I'm going to assume their decision not to nerf Ursan (or possibly to nerf it later on for that matter) is based on knowing more about this issue than either you or me.
As do character profession, skill variety (by which I mean non-Ursan 8-skill bars), Vent/TS capability, and other factors. Obviously we accept these as fundamental facts of playing the game, so what's your point?
No one's forcing you to do anything, even if a situation arises where you're trying to farm an elite area and you can't get a group because every single player there not only has the expansion but then also utterly refuses to group with you. What's to stop you from finding a guild with like-minded people to help you (if these forums are any indication you're one of very many interested non-Ursan players) and some decent heroes? Many people seem to fight or ignore that idea, but I've done it and guess what: it works. If you try that and you still can't get through your elite area then that's a problem nerfing Ursan won't fix. ...so farming a title is a repetitive activity you might not want to do, yet farming an elite area for profit isn't? Assuming this is the case, does this not mean that nerfing Ursan would satisfy a small minority at the expense of a majority? I'm not sure what you're getting at, because for me this seems to indicate that any "problems" caused by Ursan be solved with simple drop rate manipulation (say reducing the DoA gemstone droprates for the armbrace scenario), thus averting the issue of potentially upsetting the application of Ursan Blessing elsewhere.

And since when did ripping a farming build off the forums or wiki indicate anything about a player understanding game mechanics, working on "proper builds", or being less of a moron? Never if you ask me, but lucky for you I'm not so elitist that I would see them excluded from those game areas. Whether you like it or not, Ursan is as much a game mechanic in itself as the cookie cutter farming builds your perspective sympathizes with - and guess what, the people succeed at using it have learned that mechanic.

You assume alot. You know what happens when you ass-u-me.

I never said I support cookie cutter builds or Pve Skills, either(oops), or farming(oops again). Do you not have a dictionary, or are you having a hard time wrapping your head around what "elite" is about? Its about obtaining something through great skill, either innate or obtained through effort. Try to tell me that Ursan requires half the coordination that even a wiki team would. That is the problem. They create these areas and label them elite, then, just because, not the majority of new players, but just ANOTHER minority of bad to mediocre players, want fast access to these areas, they give them a win button to achieve them. If you think that is part of the same game mechanic, you are mistaken.

People are complaining, and leaving the game, because the game meta has been changed in PvE to a point where the challenge, unless you gimp yourself, is non-existent. It's no longer the game they paid for and enjoyed. A game should provide a higher sense of achievement when you beat the hardest parts of the game. When everyone is super, no one is super. Might as well play City of Heroes/Villains.

You can shove the relative lawyering crap up your ass. I agree with Shakespeare on that one.

Nuclfus · Jun 10, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

You assume alot. You know what happens when you ass-u-me.

When you refer to Ursan players as "morons who never learned the mechanics of the game, or worked on proper builds to fit the area", it's clear you're fine with assuming anything if it supports your point of view. As such I would think you of all people would avoid even mentioning this cliche.

Quote:

I never said I support cookie cutter builds or Pve Skills, either(oops), or farming(oops again).

I appreciate your concern but I didn't assume anything. Sure you didn't say you support cookie cutter builds, but the reality is that in fact you do. In opposing Ursan being used in its current form you really are supporting an exclusive pass for elite areas to people who do those areas without Ursan, which includes players running cookie cutter skills.

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Do you not have a dictionary, or are you having a hard time wrapping your head around what "elite" is about?

Do you really think irrelevant personal attacks strengthen your case?

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Its about obtaining something through great skill, either innate or obtained through effort.

And to be upset about Ursan players getting by with "less skill or effort" than non-Ursan players is an example of another assumption of yours in favor of cookie cutter wiki builds (do I have to quote your own words on what happens when you assume?).

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Try to tell me that Ursan requires half the coordination that even a wiki team would.

Easily. I've had my share of wiki builds, and I know from firsthand experience that they take no more skill than slapping Ursan on my bar.

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That is the problem. They create these areas and label them elite, then, just because, not the majority of new players, but just ANOTHER minority of bad to mediocre players, want fast access to these areas, they give them a win button to achieve them.

How can you accurately assert that the "bad to mediocre players" are reaping the benefits of areas only deserved by the "good" players? Are you any kind of authority on the definitions of "good player" and "bad to mediocre player"? If not, is there something beyond mere assumption that validates your definitions as being right while others that disagree are wrong? More importantly, do your definitions agree with those of Anet? Because to argue in this fashion that Anet should nerf Ursan, you're assuming a "yes" in response to all these questions.

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If you think that is part of the same game mechanic, you are mistaken.

Nope, I never said that nor did I ever believe that. To clarify, I would say elite areas are one game mechanic (or several depending on how you see things), Ursan Blessing is another game mechanic implemented to interact with them.

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People are complaining, and leaving the game, because the game meta has been changed in PvE to a point where the challenge, unless you gimp yourself, is non-existent. It's no longer the game they paid for and enjoyed. A game should provide a higher sense of achievement when you beat the hardest parts of the game.

Hate to break this to you but we all have a different idea of challenge. I still see groups in Hell's Precipice that struggle at even the first group of Titan sparks despite having Ursan Blessing to help them along. Would Ursan see them through an elite area? Probably not, which might indicate perhaps there still is a place for player skill in Ursan teams contrary to what you assume. Ursan is only one of very many issues that might result in the game being too easy for some players, but a game like this can't possibly hope to make everybody happy. No matter what you do with the game you'll always have some players who find things too easy and others who find it too hard. If you're one of those people, maybe you really will have more fun in City of Heroes (for all I know, since I haven't played it).

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When everyone is super, no one is super. Might as well play City of Heroes/Villains.

As I just said, Ursan hasn't made everyone super. Even assuming that this was the case, what exactly is your reasoning behind claiming you have more right to be "super" than the Ursan right next to you? Sure you'd like to think you have more skill, but can you really establish that you're smarter than he is, or that you've put forth more effort (particularly with all that title grinding of his)?

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You can shove the relative lawyering crap up your ass. I agree with Shakespeare on that one.

I can only assume (get it? ha ha ha.) you're trying to use a distracting personal vendetta to hide from being embarrassed about a flawed individual perspective on the matter and as such I will understand that it doesn't reflect upon the greater rationale behind support for an Ursan nerf. My advice to you is to lighten up on yourself a bit - I don't expect my own opinions to be perfect on the subject so no need to feel defensive if yours aren't either.

Bryant Again · Jun 10, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Exploits and glitches fall under technical issues that would be addressed regardless of whether people like them or not. Which leaves gold farming, which personally I'm fine with NOT banning. Since I personally find it a waste of time, I make the conscious choice NOT to spend my time in game farming for gold, and yet I respect that others might choose differently. They get rich, I play the way I want to, everybody wins. Anet doesn't have anything against you farming hours on end to make as much money as you want.

You are correct, using technical faults and glitches was a pretty bad example. So let's use these:

"ANet added an option to make you invulnerable to all damage for five years? No worries, don't use it."
"ANet included a skill that gives you 1 million k in an instant? No problem, don't like it then don't use it."

Notice how these both degrade the game's integrity to varying degrees.

Also, I was referring to not just gold farmers but bots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

And just because it exists doesn't mean it actually bothers us in a fashion such that Anet should cater to our preference over those who are perfectly happy with the skill.

I can give you quite a few reasons why it bothers me.

And from a different post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

I imagine these are only some of the questions Anet deals with in skill balance issues, and given that they have access to all sorts of game statistics we don't even consider I'm going to assume their decision not to nerf Ursan (or possibly to nerf it later on for that matter) is based on knowing more about this issue than either you or me.

Developer doesn't always know best (see WoW's test realm). Not only that, but I've yet to find a single reason why dumbing down the entire game, straying entirely from the original feature that sold GW next to being "Free to play" (skill > time), and generally turning into a generic MMO is something I would consider a "good idea".

Nuclfus · Jun 10, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You are correct, using technical faults and glitches was a pretty bad example. So let's use these:

"ANet added an option to make you invulnerable to all damage for five years? No worries, don't use it."
"ANet included a skill that gives you 1 million k in an instant? No problem, don't like it then don't use it."

Notice how these both degrade the game's integrity to varying degrees.

Somewhat extreme but interesting examples, so let's talk about them.

With an option to make you invulnerable, what you have essentially done is given a god mode ability for PvE (and I'll mention here that contrary to what so many people assume, Ursan is NOT a god mode). Now I STILL have no problem with other people enjoying an invincible romp through elite areas while I play in my more challenging "mortal mode", but obviously there might be economical consequences and whatnot that would affect me regardless so let's just address those. In this example, you've eliminated just about all incentive for people to save money for sup vigor runes, for "rare" weapons and mods to fetch a higher price with better stats, etc - all of which could present major alterations and/or upsets to the Guild Wars economy. However, Ursan hasn't come close to doing anything of this sort, so I don't see how this example really ties in.

Similarly the example of a "1 million k" skill is inapplicable to Ursan. You can forget about price inflation here: While many players are concerned that Ursan might raise or lower prices, this idea would simply eliminate any reason for players to use a market at all. If you were to buy a particularly rare weapon skin using this feature, how much would you expect to have to pay after inflation? 3 mil k? 4 mil k? Forget that, the other guy might as well just click his mouse on that skill 4 times, and save himself the trouble of a trade window not to mention forking over his loot. No, your eventual and only real choice would be to go out and farm the weapon yourself without the aid of a player-driven economy at all. I'd say whatever problems with Ursan you have in mind wouldn't even compare in the same category as this scenario.

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Also, I was referring to not just gold farmers but bots.

Bots are illegal in great part because unlike Ursan which is used and monitored by Anet as one of many tools to control their economy, bots subvert and work against Anet's control over the economy. Additionally, Ursan was implemented to directly serve the interests of the players who use it so they can enjoy the game more, while bots typically serve third-party companies who have no interest in players having more fun or Anet running a good business.

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I can give you quite a few reasons why it bothers me.

My point is that having reasons is not enough - you have to show that your reasons for Anet making you happy at the expense of other people outweigh their reasons for not doing so.

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Developer doesn't always know best (see WoW's test realm).

You're right in saying developers don't always know best (I certainly don't always agree with them), but given that they access to MUCH more information about their own game than we do, what does that say about what we know? You might not agree, but do understand why I generally put in my vote of confidence with the devs. As such, anytime I see "Ursan is ruining PvE" in these forums I'll be applying a very heavy burden of proof.

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Not only that, but I've yet to find a single reason why dumbing down the entire game, straying entirely from the original feature that sold GW next to being "Free to play" (skill > time), and generally turning into a generic MMO is something I would consider a "good idea".

Understand that Anet didn't intend for any of us to take a small catch phrase for the game and overgeneralize it to some rigid universal litmus test for whether something belongs in the game. They didn't have in mind a specific definition for the terms "skill" and "time", nor any meaningful system by which to measure one or the other. Obviously if we are to take the phrase literally we have to adopt our definitions and standards from the arbitrary choosing of one minority party, at which point any result on whether Guild Wars truly is "skill > time" is trivial and irrelevant.

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

In this example, you've eliminated just about all incentive for people to save money for sup vigor runes, for "rare" weapons and mods to fetch a higher price with better stats, etc - all of which could present major alterations and/or upsets to the Guild Wars economy. However, Ursan hasn't come close to doing anything of this sort, so I don't see how this example really ties in.

I've also eliminated the need to learn how to play, to become a better player, to more understand the game the person is playing. While a "god mode" isn't as comparable to Ursan, it gets pretty damn close.

Also note that my concerns are not with the economy in any sense, but with ANet's decisions to bork the game. Also I don't consider the economy important since there are very few items of actual "worth". The rest is vanity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

My point is that having reasons is not enough - you have to show that your reasons for Anet making you happy at the expense of other people outweigh their reasons for not doing so.

See here. Come back when you've proven that none of the grievances listed in that thread are a problem.

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Originally Posted by Nuclfus

You're right in saying developers don't always know best (I certainly don't always agree with them), but given that they access to MUCH more information about their own game than we do, what does that say about what we know?

...A whole lot. The developer's play time don't even come close to that of the player's. The dev's don't have to time nor resources to compete in high-end GvG, work endlessly to complete dungeons, go deep into a profession's attribute line and work with it for months, and so much more. If you want an example, look at the Dervish and Paragon - two classes that needed a nearly complete overhaul right after Nightfall's release. If the dev's knew "so much about their game" then why were two classes changed in thousands of aspects?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuclfus

Understand that Anet didn't intend for any of us to take a small catch phrase for the game and overgeneralize it to some rigid universal litmus test for whether something belongs in the game. They didn't have in mind a specific definition for the terms "skill" and "time", nor any meaningful system by which to measure one or the other. Obviously if we are to take the phrase literally we have to adopt our definitions and standards from the arbitrary choosing of one minority party, at which point any result on whether Guild Wars truly is "skill > time" is trivial and irrelevant.

See this picture on the inside box of prophecies? "It will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat", and how it doesn't mention a premade build that only becomes powerful through grinding a title?

Yes, it's true that GW doesn't have to follow their "original vision". But is it *really* a good idea to become just like everybody else, and abandon the unique feature that sold their game besides being "free to play"?

Risus · Jun 11, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quit complaining, its like asking them to nerf TOUCHERS. Won't happen Mustafa

kostolomac · Jun 11, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryantAgain

See this picture on the inside box of prophecies? "It will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat", and how it doesn't mention a premade build that only becomes powerful through grinding a title?

That idea in pve went down the drain with kurzick/luxon skills , and went to hell with the ss/lb title track , UB is just the top of the cake.

Clarissa F · Jun 11, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...A whole lot. The developer's play time don't even come close to that of the player's. The dev's don't have to time nor resources to compete in high-end GvG, work endlessly to complete dungeons, go deep into a profession's attribute line and work with it for months, and so much more. If you want an example, look at the Dervish and Paragon - two classes that needed a nearly complete overhaul right after Nightfall's release. If the dev's knew "so much about their game" then why were two classes changed in thousands of aspects?

QFT

Read on their website, mmorpg.org, or maybe even here to find the quotes by Jeff Strain, et al, stating this very fact. Strain states the players on forums know the mechanics and play the game more than they ever do. The devs even admitted they based the balances through observing GvG.

Bryant Again · Jun 11, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

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Originally Posted by Risus

Quit complaining, its like asking them to nerf TOUCHERS. Won't happen Mustafa

Thing is, touchers aren't op and are easy to counter. They're just annoying.

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Originally Posted by kostolomac

That idea in pve went down the drain with kurzick/luxon skills , and went to hell with the ss/lb title track , UB is just the top of the cake.

And those were terrible ideas, as well. PvE skills should be alternatives, not necessities.